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Penalties for stupid behaviour?


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#16 cremaster

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 10:15 PM

Newbie, you are admittedly exactly that. You have zero understanding of pack dynamics. Discuss amongst your friends. Keep your uneducated comments about the game of dominos we play off the air. You do not know what happened unless you are every rider in that vicinity of that crash. Each of those perspective with point to a reality.  I saw Chris raise his hand. Which is often done to signal a flat. It happened a few times during this race. Chris is relaxed and comfortable in a race like this. He is one of very few who's wheels I look for. He had been on the front of the group controlling the race as he did most of the race. At the time of the crash the bunch was slowing and had swelled with lesser riders, like Bernd, trying to reach the front.  This creates chaos. Chris is completely capable of keeping his bike upright in a challenging situation which he did even after coming two feet off the ground and to the right 'after' tangling with riders. He hit Gary Doering who stood him up like the old pro he is, and both were fine except being pissed. I spoke to both later. Despite my perspective I will never have full understanding, as you won't, until I know the movements of each and every rider leading up to the crash. I did not see the rider on the deck either until the following lap. There were many people standing on the course at that spot and I assumed he had been stopped even though I was only a couple riders behind. Your suggest Chris is completely thoughtless and has zero compassion about a fellow rider.  This is completely incorrect.  
Bernd, you are no Chris Martel. You are part of the problem, and absolutely not part of the solution.  I wouldn't ride next to you if someone pad me. I spent most of the race trying to get away from dangerous ass.  You chop every corner on the inside you can find and move up on the outside only to loose wheels when you can't hang on.  I'd suggest it's more likely you were so over your head in the race you have no idea what happened. Please apologize to the rest of the Masters for being in the way and making every corner a dangerous one.  You have absolutely zero right to demand anything of anyone in the bunch.
MTBAdam you are the worst culprit.  You don't even know what happened. You just read something on the Internet and jumped on the bandwagon.  If there is anyone on the Cyclery team that's an A-Hole it's me.  This is the nicest, most understanding and thoughtful team I have ever been on.  I'm lucky they keep me around because Chris isn't half the A-Hole I am.  You on the other hand are a troll seeking out an opportunity to bash someone about something you know nothing about except the opinions of two people who were kind of there. If you want to hear what I really think just ask me next time you see me. I will be the A-Hole (the only one) in the Cyclery jersey at the next mountain bike race.
Karl Stover.

#17 Birkenfeld1

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Posted 04 August 2015 - 06:33 AM

I based my comments solemn on several witnesses , some of whom watched tons of bike races....and Karl I rode in the back..by myself..so I have no idea what you are talking about. For everybody talk is cheap as long as you are not the one on the pavement!

Bernd
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#18 cremaster

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Posted 04 August 2015 - 07:56 AM

So basically you had no visual of what happened because you were at the back. So you are wrong. The only ones owed an apology are Chris and other Cyclery team members and staff (who were drug into this for no apparent reason. They are allowed pod people) You have no idea what happened since you were not at the point of contact. As Creed pointed out already, not everyone sees this or any other situation the same.
On my comments about you. I saw you several times during the race. No other Digfish rider wears the powder blue jersey. You absolutely, without question, we moving up on the corners. You chose to do so and that's fine but that is dangerous. So your foundation of morality on the subject of poor sportsmanship is constructed of a wet cardboard box.

#19 cremaster

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Posted 04 August 2015 - 07:56 AM

So basically you had no visual of what happened because you were at the back. So you are wrong. The only ones owed an apology are Chris and other Cyclery team members and staff (who were drug into this for no apparent reason. They are allowed pod people) You have no idea what happened since you were not at the point of contact. As Creed pointed out already, not everyone sees this or any other situation the same.
On my comments about you. I saw you several times during the race. No other Digfish rider wears the powder blue jersey. You absolutely, without question, we moving up on the corners. You chose to do so and that's fine but that is dangerous. So your foundation of morality on the subject of poor sportsmanship is constructed of a wet cardboard box.

#20 PeteHulse

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Posted 04 August 2015 - 08:19 AM

I was the Race Director for The Grove Criterium so I followed up with the rider who crashed, Mark Jones. He definitely rung his bell pretty good on Saturday and he has some road rash but he says it is not too bad. In fact he made it to work on Monday. It may take him a little bit of time to recover fully but he seems to be in pretty good spirits. His recollection of the crash is a bit fuzzy. He thinks it was just an incident where something happened in front of him and then he didn't have the time to react, ran out of road and then ran into the back of Chris Creed (remind me not to run into Creed). Mark is positive, wants to take his time with recovery but plans to be back on the back rather soon. He is not mad at anyone for the crash.

I also spoke with Chris Martel. Chris is rather shaken by the comments on here, which is completely understandable. As others have mentioned accidents happen and it is tough to tell the cause of a lot of accidents because it could start with someone lightly touching wheels near the front, then someone behind brake checking and by the time it works its way back a few riders someone ends up with zero reaction time available and they go down. That is an accident.

I'm looking forward to seeing Mark Jones and Chris Martel back in the races very soon as I am sure they will be after they have had a bit of time to recovery physically and mentally.

Lets not jump to conclusions because it is often extremely hard to know what initiated a crash.

#21 cremaster

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Posted 04 August 2015 - 10:14 AM

Spot on Peder. Thanks for the update. The race was great.

#22 Birkenfeld1

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Posted 04 August 2015 - 10:32 AM

I apologize to the Masters Racers in particicular Superstar Karl Stover, to the rookie spectators and expert spectators, the crashed fellow rider, for telling it like it was!
I never won a bikerace or finished top Three. So i don't know anything about Racing. I did not even know that it is okay to take your hands of the handlebars during a Criterium at high speeds approaching a corner.
See you at the Races, I'm eager to learn.

Bernd :rolleyes:
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#23 cleeland

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Posted 04 August 2015 - 12:26 PM

FWIW, I saw nothing that happened despite being in the race. What I saw was a really super-fast slowdown as we were on our way to turn #1, such that I almost ran into the gateway rider (Christian, maybe?) who was in front of me, but barely avoided it by rolling slightly to his left while he held his line, then I heard the sounds of collision behind me.

I quizzed a few folks around me as to what happened, and nobody was quite sure.  Everybody chilled a little around the next corner, then racing resumed.  Only on the next lap did the field have any indication that there was still an issue on the course.

Afterwards I asked a few other people what they saw.  I got different stories, and these were from people who actually had a visual.  My conclusion?  Nobody really knows what happened other than the effects.  News flash: there was a tangling and a crash in a flat crit.  Oh wait...that's not really news to anyone who's been racing more than a few years or witnessed more than a few races.

If you're a newbie to racing, you may not realize that most of the people in that field not only know each other, but are friends and training partners regardless of the sponsors on their clothing.  We've all been racing too long and it's too small of a community to be jerks.  It's far more fun to race hard against people you like and who like you and who will work with you in a break and congratulate you on a race well-done (even when you didn't win).

I haven't been racing as long as many in the masters, but I will assure you that if I were going through tight corners in a crit, Martel is one of the wheels I would trust to take the inside line on me--more so than many others.
Winner in absentia: '09 Moonlight Ramble

#24 jonnyQuest

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Posted 04 August 2015 - 12:28 PM

Hi.

I was in Chicago when this happened and have had no conversations, solemn or otherwise, with any witnesses.  If we are going to discuss this incident on the message board I think it is important that we dispense with any pretense of being factual, except of course, my account.  Given that I know nothing of the actual event I feel that I am in a superior position to discuss the event than someone who was there, saw the event, and didn't understand what had happened.  

In bike races, people try to go fast on their bike in such a manner that they complete the course faster than their competitors.  That is all well and good, except that sometimes a race requires racers to ride in close proximity to one another.  To further confound the situation, especially in masters races, racers of very disparate abilities and experience must race in the same pack.  This leads to situations known as "stoopid shit."   Stoopid shit seldom has a single identifiable cause.  Those who think otherwise are usually goggled eyed newbies who think reading "cyclingnews" is a reasonable substitute for actual racing experience.

Though single events are hard to identify, their are fairly identifiable mindsets which most often contribute to the occurrence of Stoopid Shit.  The most common is the "didjaseeme??? Look at me!!!"mind set.  Usually these are riders who want to to, by any means necessary, have a glory lap so that their spouse, child, pet, random aquaintance may say "umm yes" when asked by the rider "didjaseeme? didjaseeme?"  These folks are fairly easy to identify by their willingness to chop turns and take unecessary risks mid race. They usually have something affixed to their bike or inked onto their body to assure a constant state of "look at me!!!!!"  I believe we have a museum grade example posting in this topic.

The other common buzz kill are those on the hunt for "precious points".  These are lickspittle turd knockers who care little for the race at hand but are distracted, to the point of of myopic stupidity, with an obsession for points in an overall series.  "Precious Point" practitioners are largely responsible for the slower paces of races.  Though they have strength and talent, they prefer to race negatively.  This allows large amounts of "didjaseeme, lookatme" riders to remain in the race long past what is safely advisable.

The last, and my favorite, are the "experts."   They've been racing for about 6 weeks.  They have a powermeter, an internet coach and a really amazing sense of entitlement paired with a clairvoyance to quickly observe, understand and firmly declare descriptions of events of which they have no actual understanding.  

Like Chris Martel, and Chris Creed, I've been involved in this sport much longer than anyone who, even passingly, refers to him/herself as an "adult" should.  I'm currently Chris Martel's teammate.  If he was in the proximity of a crash I find it very unlikely that he was the orignal cause.  It is important to understand that coincidence is not causality.    The fact that the original poster did not even know who "205" was indicates that he/she/it has limited knowledge about racing generally and local racing dynamics in particular.

My team, The Cyclery, has it's share of squirrel nuts.  All teams do.  I think you'd be hard pressed to find a more talented, more decent, more safe or classier rider than Chris Martel.  

In the end, this crash was almost certainly caused by.....Mark Shea.

Jack Daugherty



#25 Barry Bean

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Posted 04 August 2015 - 01:50 PM

I think we've just had an excellent demonstration of why it's best to discuss things like this without getting into names and specifics. Anyone who's sported road rash or been in a race with an accident knows that things happen very fast and the ultimate cause is seldom clear cut if you talk to everyone involved.Even in pro races with video coverage from several angles, it can often be unclear why a rider went down or deviated from his line. Suffice it to say that a non-racer watching a race in real time from a balcony (while drinking beer?) is arguably not the single most authoritative reporter of what happened or arbiter of blame, and it's a shame to drag someone's name and reputation through the mud based on an account that may or may not be accurate.

#26 paul q

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Posted 04 August 2015 - 03:58 PM

I've logged literally thousands of miles with Chris Martel over the last 7 yrs. As many stated above, those who know Chris know he's a total class act - on and off the bike. His reputation speaks for itself.

I was in the race Sat but I didn't see what happened. Chris isn't infallible - none of us are. This is bike racing. Crashes happen. It's part of the deal. What I can assure is that Chris feels awful, regardless of whether or not he was actually culpable.

Bernd - what you've done here is a mess. It's one thing call someone out for their riding if there's evidence, or you had clear line of sight. But to make accusations of not caring, unsporting, skipping the pit (which simply wasn't the case) is a whole other level of low. You're slandering a good man's character and speaking untruths. If you were on a team I managed or sponsored I'd demand a sincere and public apology, else you'd be gone in a minute.

-Paul Quindry

#27 cremaster

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Posted 04 August 2015 - 04:11 PM

Jack wins.
Bernd playing the victim now makes you look even worse.  You were at the back. There is no way you could see what happened. We were far from the corner.  Chris hands where on his bars at the point wheels were touched. He wasn't the first to touch wheels. We were not at high speed at all. Spectators were and had been in the road there. Lastly, you verbally attacked Chris and that's absolutely uncalled for in this situation. So for me to do to you what you have done to Chris is acceptable because you set the standard. Again, I'm not Chris, Christian, Harre or Creed. They are all better people than me. I'm just a loyal friend that thinks your actions are bullshit.

#28 Birkenfeld1

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Posted 04 August 2015 - 04:44 PM

I take all the BS people will say about me, consider me what you want , but I as all of you did not see what happened. I was the first to admit this! When it happened I was actually to the far right slightly behind crashpoint. My info is from witnesses which saw exactly what happened , I will not mention their names, but they saw the same as the person on balcony of urban chestnut, with the exception they know racing. My wish for all of you is that you may always be save while racing. I am amazed how little or know concern is there about the man who crashed....he was my only concern.
This is my final post not only about this , but for good on this post.
May you all be happy and safe and good crashfree racing in the future.

Bernd Faust
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#29 2 π R

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Posted 04 August 2015 - 06:19 PM

Too many words, Sorry. I will summarize.

Racing is racing. Things happen in a dangerous sport. When you enter a race there is nobody to blame for any crashes, damaged equipment or injuries. If there is a problem, lets those who must handle it do their job.

Irresponsible accusations are unacceptable no matter the source or direction. Neither side in this issue should have taken place, especially here.

I once said something to another privately. We were both involved with the event. I did not check my words and obviously offended. The penalty was swift and severe. It is still being served and on a grand scale. Words hurt when heard, they destroy others as well as the source. Self moderation was as absent then as it is here but there are many more individuals involved. A few are acting responsible, they are the exception to the situation in whole.

This was my cycling community. It was so much better than what it has become as I see it. What went on here (knee jerk reactions void of sufficient information to form judgements and the ensuing conflict) has increased and become rampant. This was my life, what I lived and breathed in many capacities. I wish it was never so and regret the connection to it.

I was done with cycling here almost completely. What went on here and what has been occurring in this cycling community since my removal, reinforces my position. I am embarrassed and ashamed to be connected with it.

Original words saved and are available on request but not via this site. What is said can not be unsaid.

Steven Wilkes
USAC Lic# 38255 (current and unused)


It is just a little bit harder to get in trouble.........






.........for what I do not say.

    #30 cremaster

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    Posted 04 August 2015 - 07:44 PM

    It is still the case Bernd that you by your own admission saw nothing. You spoke to someone not in the race (the worst place to be to view and direct a wreck) about the wreck and used their "opinion".  Then you attacked one rider who wasn't even the first person to make contact. Chris didn't even know the rider you are talking about hit the ground. I spoke to no one who knew til the next lap when we saw him sitting there. Chris went to the wheel pit after the wreck. Period. His number was and is recorded by the official. Chris contacted Peder, as Peder said, to find out what the condition of the rider was.  You just want to point blame. You are the prick here.  You are the one making assumptions.  You are the problem. You suggest Chris has and had no compassion. That is absolutely not the case. You've made a lot of assumptions. None of which are correct. The only one still talking BS here is you. Well and maybe Steven.  I have no idea what you're talking about Steven. That was some weird shit.
    Bernd you perpetuated a character assassination on someone you don't even know with dodging information on something you didn't see.  Have you ever spoken to Chris?  Maybe you should.  I can suggest you first words if you can't think of anything positive.  I'm sorry would be a good start.