[Bill S.]

point to point, on Dec 12 2007, 01:41 PM, said:

Perhaps THF will now install bike racks in some of their oversized seas of asphalt that they've aquired through eminent domain...

THF being the sponsor of a cycling team is like Beretta sponsoring a peace march.

point to point, on Dec 12 2007, 02:18 PM, said:

To be more specific: THF Realty largely builds the least bike and pedestrian friendly developments possible. Their developments mandate driving, increase traffic, and the tenents that occupy these buildings often push locally owned stores out of business. The traffic generated by these developments increases pollution and green-house gas. In addition, this company has no problem ousting residents (usually poor) from their homes with the threat of or actual use of eminent domain, something that I think many people find repugnant.

As cyclists, who I assume would like safer and better environments to ride in, why do we accept money from a company like this that operates in a clearly anti-cycling way. I'm not talking about, say, Coca-Cola rotting kids teeth with sugar, I'm talking about something that directly affects cyclists in a negative way, not to mention the broader community.

Yep, THF has also been a sponsor of the team that I ride for. Something that I have just gritted my teeth and put up with, until now. While I've expressed my views privately in the past, I've never made a big deal out of it. Perhaps I should have.

So here's the question: Why do we accept this? Why let a company with an obvious bias towards cars, pollution, and environmental and social degredation benefit from sponsoring a healthy sport with a fairly good reputation, at least at the amatuer level? Sure, 10 guys who race bikes on that team will see the benefit, but what about the broader cycling community that is harmed by this company?

Scott

point to point, on Dec 12 2007, 03:06 PM, said:

i don't think my pant legs roll much higher. I can't comment on your barrel remark because I don't know what it means.

Beretta - shotgun - double barrel - Dick Cheney's your pal - flame fest

Going to the HS baskeball game maybe I'll have more tomorrow, if I feel in the mood.

[point to point]

Anyway, I don't know why this was in the "wrong" category. It was a post about THF in a thread about a team THF is footing the bill for. But thank you Bill for moving it to a category that you deemed appropriate. I'm glad they gave the message-board-hall-monitor job to someone with such an outstanding sense of wit and responsibility. I'm really sorry my post made you so uncomfortable.

Anyway, look, no one needs to respond to my post and defend THF, because its pretty hard to defend that company. I just hope people think about these things before they go on representing in a positive way a company which, with every new project, makes it harder and harder for people to get around by bike. And I hope that at some point, no one will accept these kinds of companies into the racing / advocacy / event sponsorship sphere. THF shouldn't be able to buy the silence of every cyclist because they help 10 people race their bikes.

Just to contrast, at the USGP race in Louisville, Clif Bar, the title sponsor, recycled 75% of the waste at the event. They made a guess as to how much carbon people generated to attend and then invested some kind of dollar equivalent into wind power. They get most of their companies power from wind, and they've moved many of their operations in order to decrease the distance their products travel before they get to the store. They even buy "cool tags" for their regional teams to offset travel and rented bikes, not cars, for all the employees they sent to Interbike.

I will shut up when THF starts installing solar panels in their massive parking lots to power the cinderblock palaces they build. Doesn't their involvement in cycling make anyone else a little uncomfortable?

Scott

[rockhound]

While I don't care for the way THF designs their facilities, they are no different than any other developer, unfortunately.

Why should THF be singled out or held to a higher standard than any other developer? Because they sponsor a bicycle racing team?

USPS drives those silly Jeeps all over our country, spewing hydrocarbons while delivering glossy mags and junk mail made from dead trees...and for what, to give us our mail?

Bicycle racing and cycling advocacy don't necessarily go hand in hand anyway, especially when it comes to the roadie side.

[rudy aka 'maninblak']

Scott I agree with you. We are all going to have a wake up call soon, and the more people speak up without rancor to point out the problems the less we will suffer later. I think one can admire and laud a company for sponsoring a bike team, for that is a good thing, and at the same time point out some shortcomings. Everybody has good points and bad points, and speaking about our faults can be done with love. Like Rockhound says, they are a developer that does something positive on top of that. Other construction companies/developers may be involved with other things more directly related to their work, but after all this is St. Louis.

Who is doing good stuff in St. Louis, do you know? Some small developers in the city, perhaps, and Alberici seems to be interested in sustainable construction?

We cant just go around pretending everything is peachy hunky dory, because it aint. And history shows what happens when people are afraid to speak up. A lot of bad things happen just because people simply don't realize the implications of what they are doing. They are good people, just do not realize!

[Incstlouis]

Quote

I'm glad they gave the message-board-hall-monitor job to someone with such an outstanding sense of wit and responsibility. I'm really sorry my post made you so uncomfortable.

Does somebody have their panties in a bunch?

Shimano has sales exceeding 1.4 billion/year and 75% of that is from their cycling division. THF has soemthing in the neighborhood of $2 Billion in it's portfolio. Shimano has a market cap over 2.4 Billion.

I'll take a wild guess and say that you probably own a bike with Shimano components.

Following your own lead, will you ride a single speed exclusively (sans Shimano parts) until they do they same as you are suggesting for THF.

How many Shimano parts are manufactured in the US? Oh that's right, they make them in Asia, and then load them on 40ft. containers, strap them to a big diesel powered freighters bound for the US so that we can ride 15 lb. bicycles.

Are you kidding me - criticize THF?

Scott - Any guess as to the amount of checks Michael has written to benefit the cycling industry which I think you are still a part of? I know it is more than me. As a matter of fact, let's take a moment to reflect on which local companies are supporting the hobby that so many of us enjoy.

[DanSchmatz]

Scott,


First you say bike racks would make you happy, then you will "shut up" if solar panels are installed. I don't know you at all but based off the message board I assume you don't have a car and ride your bike or walk everywhere, your home is solar powered, you have a composting toilet and only eat foods that you grow in your yard. Do I believe this to be true, of course not and in fact I only made such a ridicules statement to mirror how narrow minded and fixated on specific things you are.

Do you have facts to back up your statements? You say "THF Realty largely builds the least bike and pedestrian friendly developments possible. Their developments mandate driving, increase traffic, and the tenents that occupy these buildings often push locally owned stores out of business."

This is a really general statement that is hard for people to take in. It would be helpful if you can give us the comparison numbers between a THF development and other developers? A list of the locally owned stores that have closed would be helpful also.


As all intelligent people know there is more that one side to every story.


Dan

[Bill S.]

point to point, on Dec 12 2007, 06:11 PM, said:

Anyway, I don't know why this was in the "wrong" category. It was a post about THF in a thread about a team THF is footing the bill for. But thank you Bill for moving it to a category that you deemed appropriate. I'm glad they gave the message-board-hall-monitor job to someone with such an outstanding sense of wit and responsibility. I'm really sorry my post made you so uncomfortable.


Scott

Just to set the record straight, Tim asked very nicely to have the thread moved and he's a stand-up guy so I thought it ought to move before the fun started. If you think I'm being a hall monitor for this board, you really are being ironic considering my experiences associated with stlbiking.com. Rest assured I'm not uncomfortable about your post but as I said out of respect for Tim I thought it should be placed else where.

Lets see if we can put what you are saying into talking points for discussion.

1.Their developments mandate driving, increase traffic

2.the tenents that occupy these buildings often push locally owned stores out of business.

3. The traffic generated by these developments increases pollution and green-house gas

4. In addition, this company has no problem ousting residents (usually poor) from their homes with the threat of or actual use of eminent domain.


It's almost worth starting 4 threads but would all agree these are the top 4 issues with large box store devels and is it possible to use the Maplewood devel as an example without anyone taking it personal?

[point to point]

I could spend an unlimited amount of time criticizing THF. I think Alan Bornstein, who happens to be one of the 200 richest people in the world in 2005, can probably handle it.

Should we hold THF to a higher standard? How about holding them to any standard? Take a look at their website and its clear that they do one thing: Build, own, and maintain giant parking lots that sit in front of Walmart's and Lowe's stores. THF is NOT like any other developer. There are much better, more responsible developers here is St. Louis. Clayco has more than 40 LEED (look it up if you don't know what it is) certified buildings. Alberici's HQ is powered by a wind turbine and is surrounded by native plants, not asphalt. Sage and EcoUrban are two local home builders that are doing green in-fill housing.

Criticizing THF has already lead to the forced resignation of a St. Louis Bike Fed. member in 2005. Steve Patterson caught a bunch of heat from other members after calling into question THF's developments because THF gave $1,000 to the Bike Fed that year.

There is a direct conflict between cycling and their business practices. Try riding your bike up Hanley in front of the "Brentwood Commons", which, by the way, doesn't have any bike parking in spite of having hundreds or thousands of spots for cars. Oh, and how about the fact that families were unwillingly forced out of their homes in order to build that THF development, and others? THF kicks people out of their homes so they can build parking lots. I can say that when I put on my jersey, which says THF, I experience a certain amount of grief and bitterness.

Your comparison of Shimano and THF is so absurd that it hardly merits a response, but why not?

-Shimano is the world leader in providing the tools that allow people to get out of their cars and use bikes as a means of transport. -THF creates environments that exclude bikes and pedestrians to the highest degree possible.

-Shimano is ISO 14001 registered, which is an environmental compliance standard that requires yearly improvements and reductions in pollution.
-THF is involved in the active destruction of open space (over 100,000 acres total) , and the degradation of existing environments. Their developments lead to a continuous increase in pollution from cars coming to buildings they own, not to mention the massive energy expenditures to control the climate inside those buildings. Since THF is so closely tied to Walmart, I think its also fair to say that virtually all of Walmarts products are made overseas, and I think its also fair to say in much worse conditions than common to Shimano, since Shimano owns its own factories. And Shimano is a Japanese company... so why not manufacture in Japan and other Asian countries?

Anyway, none of these points is even relevent, or attempts to refute my original point: That THF is hurting cyclists, and therefore, as cyclists, we ought to object to giving them a better name by accepting their money. Lets deal with the fact that the largest amount of sponsorship dollars in this area come from a company that is anti-cycling, radically pro-car. I don't care if one member of their brass rides a bike. Overall, cyclists in this area are much worse off because of them. The more THF's there are, the less bikes, and the more miles travelled by car. The cycling community, for obvious reasons, should be at the front of pack in terms of demanding a better environment in general, and better, cleaner modes of transport in particular. As long as we keep taking money from THF, we are unfortuneatly a bunch of hypocrites.

Scott

[point to point]

And Bill, I do sometimes feel bad about my level of snide sarcasm... perhaps it undermines my points. Anyway, we all have our faults.

[universalcode]

rockhound, on Dec 12 2007, 07:02 PM, said:

While I don't care for the way THF designs their facilities, they are no different than any other developer, unfortunately.

Why should THF be singled out or held to a higher standard than any other developer? Because they sponsor a bicycle racing team?

USPS drives those silly Jeeps all over our country, spewing hydrocarbons while delivering glossy mags and junk mail made from dead trees...and for what, to give us our mail?

why not single THF out? some developers really are setting a new standard.

check out these green developments!

and st. louis is one of four metro areas that currently use biodiesel in their mail trucks. and the whole fleet has alternative fuel vehicle contracts already in the works!

we've all got to start somewhere. i'm willing to start calling local businesses out. and yes, i'll call THF a dirty POSER for sponsoring a cycling team!

[DanSchmatz]

point to point, on Dec 12 2007, 09:24 PM, said:

I could spend an unlimited amount of time criticizing THF. I think Alan Bornstein, who happens to be one of the 200 richest people in the world in 2005, can probably handle it.

Scott

You don't know what your talking about.

[eddyvelo]

I was looking at a AYH book of bike routes in the bi-state area. this was from '89 or so, before Chesterfield commons. Several of the routes directed you through the valley down chesterfield airport road or whatever parallels 40. All the old guys who ride used to ride out there. It was a good way to get west. Now it's damn near impossible to ride that are since the built the miracle mile.

When I lived in Maplewood, my wife and I used to go for walks in the area where Maplewood commns is. There were nice houses with well kept lawns and well kept properties. Hardly blighted. Once the development was a green light this whole neighborhood vanished. Furthermore, driving on Hanley just south of 40 is a nightmare. It was always rough, but now it's ridiculous. I couldn't imagine riding there.

This is strictly annecdotal evidence. I don't have stats or the like. I'm sure THF does several good things. But I don't see how removing plants, which absorb heat and CO2, and replacing them with concrete and asphalt is worth overlooking because they donate 1000 to stl bike fed.

Plus, who takes an iPod on a group ride?

[Diogenes]

"THF" is, I believe, an acronym for "To Have Fun." It should be "TH(H)F." *
Tell it to the displaced homeowners and taxpayers in (name the town) who shoulder the burden when the Fun Crowd installs its Sleaze-Mart Centers (whoops - Centres).

Kudos, point to point.

* "To Have (Hypocritical) Fun."

[rudy aka 'maninblak']

There are such large segments of our society that have destructive elements to them, and yet are such an integral part of our economy. So many people depend on them for a living and feel threatened if these economic institutions are threatened. The system is set up for them, and it can't turn on a dime. We should laud the efforts of those who are dependant on that system and have to maintain it for now to do anything at all to improve it.

Sponsoring a bike team in that light is not hypocritical. Neither is Walmarts efforts to build more sustainable stores. Or Pepsicos plan to retrofit a more energy efficient Frito chip plant in the desert. There are others in the same businesses who do nothing at all.

What good does it do to feel bitter? I noticed what a lovely town Hermann was, how hospitable it was and how generous it was for them to invite us to their park to destroy it. And yet 'everybody' in Hermann drives a monster truck. It is just what we have become. It will take time to realize the huge errors we have comitted and then these same people in the goodness of their hearts will be working hard to correct them.

Its just human nature, greed and fear drive us into places we didn't really want to go, then we try to make up for it. It will always be that way. It is still good to speak up about beliefs, but maybe not to single out individual entities in a negative light. If you feel hypocritical, i have found it is good to listen to that inner voice and change what you can: yourself!

What if we start a new team, the 'Green Dream'? I can see those deep green skinsuits now. Maybe we could get Google to sponsor us and buy us a solar powered van?

[cleeland]

This is an interesting thread. THF, through Mike Staenberg, has written lots of checks to benefit the cycling community, not only in St. Louis, but in other communities where THF has presence. He/they have also been substantial benefactors to many worthy charities. This is all to be lauded.

What is unfortunate in my opinion is that THF squanders unique opportunities to lead in other ways. As Scott points out, THF's retail developments aren't just a little bicycle unfriendly--they almost seem designed to exclude the use of ANY form of transportation other than a car. Is this different from other developmers? No, DESCO does the same thing, but is "it's no worse than anyone else" really the most appropriate standard? Dan, is that how you raced? Is THF content to be just as good as DESCO?

THF, by virtue of its leading position, could do so much more by incorporating features that are bicycle and pedestrian and, generally, PERSON friendly into their developments, and yet they don't. That is tragic. Developments such as Maplewood Commons and the Chesterfield whatever-it's-called are impossible to access on the "human scale"--the designs are awful. It's nearly impossible to walk to or between any of the stores in the development and the surrounding street configurations are so grossly unfriendly to pedestrians and cyclists that it really doesn't matter if there is bike parking because, frankly, it's ridiculous to try to access the developments via any means other than car.

And, before the questions get asked, yes, I *do* own a car, and I *do* drive occasionally, my home is not solar powered and I do eat foods that were not grown in my backyard. But so what? Doing any or all of those things does not preclude a person from recognizing flaws in a system, and working towards getting to the point where s/he doesn't HAVE to have a car in order to function.