54 replies to this topic

[Gupster]

stagnant, on 15 December 2011 - 02:20 PM, said:

Gupster, on 09 December 2011 - 11:17 PM, said:

stagnant, on 08 December 2011 - 09:11 AM, said:

Gupster, on 07 December 2011 - 09:37 AM, said:

Time as in three-four hours a week in your off season? Do you do hill repeats in your off season or lt intervals?

I lift at least 3-4 hours a week - mostly single leg exercises but core and upper body are a facet as well, but I'm a sprinter so its a little more specific then just "healthy body strength lifting". In February I'll switch the time in the gym lifting my legs to sprint/interval styled workouts on the bike.

And yes I use intervals as my main training system when on the bike in the winter months.

Maybe I'm being misinterpreted here ... I don't think an endurance rider has any business thinking that a weight lifting program will give him more than just a general fitness baseline. However, I do think that a weight lifting program (when done correctly, and I don't think many ppl accomplish this) can give anyone a general fitness baseline AND as mentioned before help to erase strength discrepancies.

We've been over this before. Lifting can benefit endurance racers. Working strength can help with endurance. Do you have to lift? No, but it can help. And I hope you know, it helps for any bike racer to develop some kind of a sprint. Even endurance racers" cycling isn't a strict endurance sport.

No offense but when you talk about single leg lifts and core training I just don't think you know much about lifting or programing.

I'm not sure what says stupid about the phrase single leg exercises and core, vague maybe. I focus on primarily single leg lifts to make my training more specific to cycling. If I was younger I'd go into detail.

And about every cyclist needing a sprint? Yea sure I'll agree that everyone could use one. Except to get the strength from the gym that you'd need for a "sprint" it's not as easy as just going to the gym and lifting heavy.

compound lifts, like the squat and deadlift, are far superior to "single leg lifts". This is basic knowledge. Second, your "core" does not need to be seperatly trained. And when we refer to "core" most people think abdominal muscles. What is more important is posterior chain. The difference from a good and bad coach would be a good coach can tap into the spinal erectors, hamstrings, and other muscles into the lower body. All these muscles with abdominal region included are much more accurately referred to as the trunk.

and yes, you need to train right to get results. But if you've been reading the rest of the threads that's what we've been discussing.

[Keith Sutorius]

"compound lifts, like the squat and deadlift, are far superior to "single leg lifts".


I think you don't understand the difference between single leg lifts and single joint lifts. Closed vs Open Chain Lifts.

Squats and deadlifts are great for developing a basic level of strength. Are they the only way? Why does the saying, when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, come to mind?

Many single leg (closed chain) lifts (various lunges, my favorite bulgarian squats, step ups, 1 legged sldl, etc.) can as compound as squats and deadlifts.  

I doubt if you have much experience with lunges, bulgarian squats, step ups or 1 legged sldl's.

[Gupster]

Keith Sutorius, on 17 December 2011 - 10:22 AM, said:

"compound lifts, like the squat and deadlift, are far superior to "single leg lifts".


I think you don't understand the difference between single leg lifts and single joint lifts. Closed vs Open Chain Lifts.

Squats and deadlifts are great for developing a basic level of strength. Are they the only way? Why does the saying, when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, come to mind?

Many single leg (closed chain) lifts (various lunges, my favorite bulgarian squats, step ups, 1 legged sldl, etc.) can as compound as squats and deadlifts.  

I doubt if you have much experience with lunges, bulgarian squats, step ups or 1 legged sldl's.

I think I don't care too much. Starting with the basics (Squats, dead-lifts, etc) is far superior. with the possibility of lunges for cyclists. Other than that squat and dl variations should stay out of it until you're strong enough. There's a reason why they call variations assistant exercises.  I don't care what kind of lift it is. Novice lifters need to start with the basics. And most everyone here are novice lifters.

Edited by Gupster, 17 December 2011 - 05:31 PM.

[Luke Newport]

Gupster - here's a great article for you : http://www.t-nation....ft_who_needs_it

[Keith Sutorius]

Luke Newport, on 17 December 2011 - 10:06 PM, said:

Gupster - here's a great article for you : http://www.t-nation....ft_who_needs_it

Great article Luke. He probably won't read it. (He seems to only listen to Riptoe)

[robertm]

so... everybody championing single leg lifts and saying you don't need deadlifts... how fast are you guys?  Just curious.

[Gupster]

this article is misleading. let's analyze this.

It's first point is, "since athletes like gymnasts, martial artists, etc can dominate in their sports dead-lifts don't help" I know people who don't do intervals on the bike. Does this mean intervals don't help. There are people who can get all As' without studying. So does this mean studying doesn't help? I think you can see the problem with this logic.


The deadlift, while a free weight movement, is movement in only one dominant plane, sagittal. this is terrible use of vocabulary. These people don't know the difference from anatomy and physiology. Your body doesn't work in planes. Planes are meant to find locations in human anatomy and not used to describe how the body functions.

The synergy of the hamstrings, glutes, and low back to produce power and strength is an extremely important component to many sports. Yet there are many ways to accomplish this other than just performing deadlifts. ... This is extremely important when training athletes as trying to make an athlete go from a 450-pound deadlift to 500 pounds may come at a significant cost to their movement skills, but have little benefit to their performance.

and how many of you can dead-lift 450-500? Which is my whole point. Until you're body demands or needs more stress most of you will gain optimally from lifts such as the dead-lift.

As a coach it can be a trap to make our clients perform the methods and drills we love to do ourselves. yeah, i think i know what he's trying to do.

The deadlift can serve as a great base for teaching the hip hinge and developing some general strength. However, we should look to progress after we establish these patterns at appropriate loads. Progressing doesn't mean loading the deadlift to Elite proportions, but moving to more complex patterns of movement, speed, and body position.

So really, this dead-lift has been saying exactly what I'm saying. This article is just meant for intermediate athletes plateauing on the dead-lift.

I know, no one ever wants to wear the "90-pound dumbbell single-leg deadlift club" T-shirt, but these movements may take your training and performance further than joining the 600-pound deadlift club.

so they're still doing dead-lifting, interesting.


Because the deadlift is such a stable and grooved exercise, it's easy to build compensation patterns that could actually be detrimental to our low back health.
The basic hip hinge component of deadlifting is vital to learn for both performance and low back health.

two statements that contradict each other. hmmm.

I'm sure single leg exercises have their use, but in no way are they better than the dead-lift. The main purpose for assistance exercises have always been to aid Oly lifters to increasing their main lifts. Who do you think developed them? It wasn't some health freak doctor who blows air up everyone's ass. But if you honestly think single leg exercises are more useful then the core lifts, does it bring on a more hormonal adaptations, does it work more of the human body, skeletal loading, metabolic change,  muscular growth and adaptation, CNS stress, connective tissues stress and strength, and balance and coordination? No.

Edited by Gupster, 19 December 2011 - 03:15 PM.

[Ransom]

All I wanna do is read about good nutrition and training.  All I see is a couple of guys bickering like bingo ladies on Wednesday night.

[Gupster]

Ransom, on 19 January 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

All I wanna do is read about good nutrition and training.  All I see is a couple of guys bickering like bingo ladies on Wednesday night.

Yeah, I wonder where any good training information is. Hmmm... Ah, I know, if you want to know how to lift, why don't you read my previous posts?

[iamgoode]

Robertt

I'm no pro, but in my most successfull years racing 3/4 and NORBA sport I used the Gym in the off season going into the spring.  I'm a bigger than average cyclist coming in around 200 when in race "trim".  I found the gym workout helpful in performance but also in avoiding a knee pain I got quite often once the miles or intensity on the bicycle went up. Short climbs of ~3 minutes and sprints were always easy for me, when I did the gym in the winter.

When I lived in UT there were hundreds of training "experts" and many would dole out advice that I couldn't use if I wanted to just due to that fact a large portion of my waking hours were spent at work unlike my friends that were racing as pros.   Riding the bike was there job and they had 4-8 hours on the bike before I got off work.  So knowing how much time you want to commit to the gym v bike matters.  In UT it was easy, bad weather = more gym.  I managed ~2 hours 3 days a week in the gym and commutted 2 hours a day most days (hour each way).  As cycling season approached the club rides replaced my gym time.  I'd rather ride the bike than go to the gym.  

At the gym I was very uneducated, but paid attention to what felt weak on the bike.  I focussed on 1-leg presses/extensions/curls on the leg sled/nautilus type machines using lower weight and high reps. I also did no-weight lunges for 40 reps each leg, and lower back extensions complimented by a few different sit up variations.  At one point I was doing single leg 60-rep leg press sets and was admonished by a very monsterous gym geek for wasting the extra reps, noting that I should increase the wieght. (in his mind)  But I didn't want to gain any mass or weight. I just wanted to keep everything aligned and strong going back into the race season, and at least from a muscular point, start out where I left off the previous year.

It worked for what I was doing, I ramped up my riding in the early spring to build cardio and endurance about 60 days before racing started and all of my spring training crit races were easy and I placed well at 3-event stage races, which I never did before.  

In the end, I think you are going to go to the gym no matter what anyone here says, so the real question is for you to decide what you want your gym results to be...  Legs like Marty Northsien or Vicky Pendleton?  Super street prints like the guys that dominate superweek maybe?  

Sean