24 replies to this topic

[bobber]

You can read Andy's article here...

Read the intro and skip to the conclusion if you want the jist of it.  Readers digest condensed version is simply that these kind of intervals don't appear to help much if at all if you are trying to improve power output.

Ok, here's my question for Andy (or any other physiologisy/coach/cyclist):  I have used this kind of thing
for climbing work.  I need to work on climbing but because of time/location cannot consistantly get to
a 12 to 15 percent grade to work on so I pick some relatively long inclines nearby, shift into the big ring and
grind up them.  It seems to help from what I can tell.  Maybe this is a slightly different workout than what Andy was specificially studying but anyway, the question is, is this a valid approach to improve climbing strength and ability?

And thanks to Andy for taking the time to study this kind of stuff and attempt to give us cyclists an idea of
how scientific approaches regularly used by coaches may be.

Now if I can just get him to read that book on vitamin C by Drs. Hickey and Roberts that I gave him last year.  

[Mike S.]

Bobber,

As is almost always the caze w/ exericse, the idea behind these types of intervals is to improve power by improving form.  Form first, always.  

It really doesn't matter what gear one does them in, so long as the resistance is high and the cadence is low; enough to allow the rider to place emphasis on parts of the pedal stroke that get little, if any, stress and attention at 90+ rpm.  

If he's not gripping the bars I can't imagine his being able to use good form.  

Andrew is also of the belief that strength has no effect on one's ability to ride.  



Mike

[DanSchmatz]

Mike S., on Jan 14 2006, 04:19 PM, said:

If he's not gripping the bars I can't imagine his being able to use good form.  

IMO:
The best way to dial in your form is by not griping the bars. Specifically it helps prevent cheating on the upstroke.

[fish]

I spent a better part of my younger years mashing large gears. In the 1980's most of us did this as we didn't know any better; hard equaled fast. Looking back, I think the only thing I taught myself was to pedal a big gear slowly, a huge regret now. These low cadence power pedal strokes don't sound like a good idea, especially for a mid-west racer where over 90 % of your racing will be relatively flat, fast crit courses. Your time would be better spent spinning your ass off and getting some leg speed.

[Mike S.]

Let's cut the crap.  

Who here is giving up SI's in light of this latest develpment?  


Mike S.

[zootv]

hi, i push big gears all the time at high speeds.   its all on you, if your to weak, you can';t  do it,  thats all,
56big chain ring on 50 pound junk bike i ride.  11tooth back,   i was thinking about moving it up to 58 tooth, if i can find one.  because i spinning it out sometimes /and to make it harder on me too.                 just do what you feel right for you.!    peace on earth shawn

[acoggan]

zootv, on Jan 15 2006, 10:27 PM, said:

hi, i push big gears all the time at high speeds.   its all on you, if your to weak, you can';t  do it,  thats all,
56big chain ring on 50 pound junk bike i ride.  11tooth back,   i was thinking about moving it up to 58 tooth, if i can find one.

I've got a 60 tooth chainring that I'd be happy to sell.

[cooper]

You could also pick up some of those 10 lbs. ankle straps.

[acoggan]

Mike S., on Jan 14 2006, 05:19 PM, said:

Andrew is also of the belief that strength has no effect on one's ability to ride.

Strength plays essentially no role in determining performance in most cycling events. In fact, based on Mike Stone's data strength doesn't seem to be all that important even in track events involving a standing start.

[aaron hinni]

Quote

In fact, based on Mike Stone's data strength doesn't seem to be all that important even in track events involving a standing start.

Wow, that was the one area I assumed strength would help.  Can you point me to an article or some sort of reference to this data?

BTW, thanks for writing up that article, it cleared up a few things for me.

[acoggan]

aaron hinni, on Jan 17 2006, 03:32 PM, said:

Quote

In fact, based on Mike Stone's data strength doesn't seem to be all that important even in track events involving a standing start.

Wow, that was the one area I assumed strength would help.  Can you point me to an article or some sort of reference to this data?

I would have assumed so as well, but it's hard to argue with direct measurements:

http://nsca.allenpre......1519/14874.1

Note that in contrast to what is implied by the abstract, the correlations between strength and performance (i.e., time required to cover 25 from standing start) observed in this study, albeit statistically significant, were not all that high, accounting for ~25% of the variance held in common. Hence, my comment that "...strength doesn't seem to be all that important even in track events involving a standing start", especially when you consider that even a team sprint starter races 10x as far...

Mike S., on Jan 15 2006, 09:08 AM, said:

Who here is giving up SI's in light of this latest develpment?

Obviously only those who have been wasting their time doing them in the first place.

[bobber]

So how do you go about improving your climbing ability?  I don't mean climbing as in the mountains they have in the Tour but the ability to stay with the leaders on the realatively short and steepish inclines you find around here?  Is it soley based on improving power at threshold (which could mean that cadance plays very little role if any)?

[tim]

great question, bobber.  i've struggled over the years with ideas about short, high-intensity climbing drills vs. long, threshhold-level climbing...i feel both help, but is there any evidence or research?  obviously, there is no substitute for overall fitness...is there value at all in specific targeting of a skill like climbing?

[Mark EWERS]

tim, on Jan 18 2006, 08:27 AM, said:

is there value at all in specific targeting of a skill like climbing?

There is for me. Whether it's physical adaptation or mental preparedness or some combination of the two I don't know, but I clearly get better at climbing when I do more of it.

[cleeland]

bobber, on Jan 18 2006, 05:52 AM, said:

So how do you go about improving your climbing ability?  ... the ability to stay with the leaders on the realatively short and steepish inclines you find around here?  Is it soley based on improving power at threshold (which could mean that cadance plays very little role if any)?

I don't think it's just about improving power at threshold, although that won't hurt.  But it's also about improving your ability to recover after repeated excursions above threshold.  Obviously, then, if you bump up your threshold power, you'll stay under that magical line for more of each hill.  Since what goes up must come down, if you can recover on the downhill (and maintain position), then you'll be in a better position to maintain overall position on the hills.

Bobber, you have a PT--race with it.  Mark intervals at "significant" points in the race, like just after an attack or hard stretch and--if it happens--when you finally poop out.  Then spend some time afterwards looking at what happened in the race leading up to the poop.  The data you get from racing with the PT will be far more valuable and helpful than any marginal weight savings one might have from NOT racing with it.